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• Correct command to transmit audio to ip camera using ffmpeg ?

  4 novembre 2016, par the_naive

  So I found some hints in this discussion on the correct command to transmit audio to Axis IP camera through using ffmpeg in windows, but still I have not managed to successfully transmit audio to the camera.

  The command I’m using is the following :

  ffmpeg -v debug -y -re -f dshow -i "audio=Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device)" -c:a pcm_mulaw -ac 1 -ar 16000 -b:a 128k -f flv http://oper
  
  ator:operator@10.10.210.2/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi -multiple_requests 1 -reconnect_at_eof 1 -reconnect_streamed 1 -content_type "audio/basic" -report

  The ouput I get following this command is the following :

  ffmpeg started on 2016-11-04 at 17:32:13
  
  Report written to "ffmpeg-20161104-173213.log"
  
  Command line:
  
  ffmpeg -v debug -y -re -f dshow -i "audio=Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device)" -c:a pcm_mulaw -ac 1 -ar 16000 -b:a 128k -f flv http://operator:operator@10.10.210.2/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi -content_type audio/basic -multiple_requests 1 -reconnect 1 -reconnect_at_eof 1 -reconnect_streamed 1 -report
  
  ffmpeg version N-82225-gb4e9252 Copyright (c) 2000-2016 the FFmpeg developers
  
    built with gcc 5.4.0 (GCC)
  
    configuration: --enable-gpl --enable-version3 --disable-w32threads --enable-dxva2 --enable-libmfx --enable-nvenc --enable-avisynth --enable-bzlib --enable-libebur128 --enable-fontconfig --enable-frei0r --enable-gnutls --enable-iconv --enable-libass --enable-libbluray --enable-libbs2b --enable-libcaca --enable-libfreetype --enable-libgme --enable-libgsm --enable-libilbc --enable-libmodplug --enable-libmp3lame --enable-libopencore-amrnb --enable-libopencore-amrwb --enable-libopenh264 --enable-libopenjpeg --enable-libopus --enable-librtmp --enable-libschroedinger --enable-libsnappy --enable-libsoxr --enable-libspeex --enable-libtheora --enable-libtwolame --enable-libvidstab --enable-libvo-amrwbenc --enable-libvorbis --enable-libvpx --enable-libwavpack --enable-libwebp --enable-libx264 --enable-libx265 --enable-libxavs --enable-libxvid --enable-libzimg --enable-lzma --enable-decklink --enable-zlib
  
    libavutil      55. 35.100 / 55. 35.100
  
    libavcodec     57. 66.101 / 57. 66.101
  
    libavformat    57. 57.100 / 57. 57.100
  
    libavdevice    57.  2.100 / 57.  2.100
  
    libavfilter     6. 66.100 /  6. 66.100
  
    libswscale      4.  3.100 /  4.  3.100
  
    libswresample   2.  4.100 /  2.  4.100
  
    libpostproc    54.  2.100 / 54.  2.100
  
  Splitting the commandline.
  
  Reading option '-v' ... matched as option 'v' (set logging level) with argument 'debug'.
  
  Reading option '-y' ... matched as option 'y' (overwrite output files) with argument '1'.
  
  Reading option '-re' ... matched as option 're' (read input at native frame rate) with argument '1'.
  
  Reading option '-f' ... matched as option 'f' (force format) with argument 'dshow'.
  
  Reading option '-i' ... matched as input file with argument 'audio=Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device)'.
  
  Reading option '-c:a' ... matched as option 'c' (codec name) with argument 'pcm_mulaw'.
  
  Reading option '-ac' ... matched as option 'ac' (set number of audio channels) with argument '1'.
  
  Reading option '-ar' ... matched as option 'ar' (set audio sampling rate (in Hz)) with argument '16000'.
  
  Reading option '-b:a' ... matched as option 'b' (video bitrate (please use -b:v)) with argument '128k'.
  
  Reading option '-f' ... matched as option 'f' (force format) with argument 'flv'.
  
  Reading option 'http://operator:operator@10.10.210.2/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi' ... matched as output file.
  
  Reading option '-content_type' ... matched as AVOption 'content_type' with argument 'audio/basic'.
  
  Reading option '-multiple_requests' ... matched as AVOption 'multiple_requests' with argument '1'.
  
  Reading option '-reconnect' ... matched as AVOption 'reconnect' with argument '1'.
  
  Reading option '-reconnect_at_eof' ... matched as AVOption 'reconnect_at_eof' with argument '1'.
  
  Reading option '-reconnect_streamed' ... matched as AVOption 'reconnect_streamed' with argument '1'.
  
  Reading option '-report' ... matched as option 'report' (generate a report) with argument '1'.
  
  Trailing options were found on the commandline.
  
  Finished splitting the commandline.
  
  Parsing a group of options: global .
  
  Applying option v (set logging level) with argument debug.
  
  Applying option y (overwrite output files) with argument 1.
  
  Applying option report (generate a report) with argument 1.
  
  Successfully parsed a group of options.
  
  Parsing a group of options: input file audio=Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device).
  
  Applying option re (read input at native frame rate) with argument 1.
  
  Applying option f (force format) with argument dshow.
  
  Successfully parsed a group of options.
  
  Opening an input file: audio=Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device).
  
  [dshow @ 00000000000279e0] Selecting pin Capture on audio only
  
  dshow passing through packet of type audio size    88200 timestamp 310221040000 orig timestamp 310221040000 graph timestamp 310226130000 diff 5090000 Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device)
  
  [dshow @ 00000000000279e0] All info found
  
  Guessed Channel Layout for Input Stream #0.0 : stereo
  
  Input #0, dshow, from 'audio=Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device)':
  
    Duration: N/A, start: 31022.104000, bitrate: 1411 kb/s
  
      Stream #0:0, 1, 1/10000000: Audio: pcm_s16le, 44100 Hz, stereo, s16, 1411 kb/s
  
  Successfully opened the file.
  
  Parsing a group of options: output file http://operator:operator@10.10.210.2/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi.
  
  Applying option c:a (codec name) with argument pcm_mulaw.
  
  Applying option ac (set number of audio channels) with argument 1.
  
  Applying option ar (set audio sampling rate (in Hz)) with argument 16000.
  
  Applying option b:a (video bitrate (please use -b:v)) with argument 128k.
  
  Applying option f (force format) with argument flv.
  
  Successfully parsed a group of options.
  
  Opening an output file: http://operator:operator@10.10.210.2/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi.
  
  [http @ 0000000001c94040] Setting default whitelist 'http,https,tls,rtp,tcp,udp,crypto,httpproxy'
  
  [http @ 0000000001c94040] request: POST /axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi HTTP/1.1
  
  
  
  Transfer-Encoding: chunked
  
  
  
  User-Agent: Lavf/57.57.100
  
  
  
  Accept: */*
  
  
  
  Expect: 100-continue
  
  
  
  Connection: close
  
  
  
  Host: 10.10.210.2
  
  
  
  Icy-MetaData: 1
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  [http @ 0000000001c94040] request: POST /axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi HTTP/1.1
  
  
  
  Transfer-Encoding: chunked
  
  
  
  User-Agent: Lavf/57.57.100
  
  
  
  Accept: */*
  
  
  
  Connection: close
  
  
  
  Host: 10.10.210.2
  
  
  
  Icy-MetaData: 1
  
  
  
  Authorization: Digest username="operator", realm="AXIS_ACCC8E027F47", nonce="0EcsO3xABQA=ab5efc4740a6c625ecf6a6729d0d67d2b62b615a", uri="/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi", response="4bd3a627b20d6bcaba9e2f595ef6cd2a", algorithm="MD5", qop="auth", cnonce="6a579dd6664b57eb", nc=00000001
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Successfully opened the file.
  
  detected 8 logical cores
  
  [graph 0 input from stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9f6e0] Setting 'time_base' to value '1/44100'
  
  [graph 0 input from stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9f6e0] Setting 'sample_rate' to value '44100'
  
  [graph 0 input from stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9f6e0] Setting 'sample_fmt' to value 's16'
  
  [graph 0 input from stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9f6e0] Setting 'channel_layout' to value '0x3'
  
  [graph 0 input from stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9f6e0] tb:1/44100 samplefmt:s16 samplerate:44100 chlayout:0x3
  
  [audio format for output stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9fa20] Setting 'sample_fmts' to value 's16'
  
  [audio format for output stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9fa20] Setting 'sample_rates' to value '16000'
  
  [audio format for output stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9fa20] Setting 'channel_layouts' to value '0x4'
  
  [audio format for output stream 0:0 @ 0000000001c9fa20] auto-inserting filter 'auto-inserted resampler 0' between the filter 'Parsed_anull_0' and the filter 'audio format for output stream 0:0'
  
  [AVFilterGraph @ 000000000002ab20] query_formats: 4 queried, 6 merged, 3 already done, 0 delayed
  
  [auto-inserted resampler 0 @ 0000000001ca4060] [SWR @ 0000000001ca4a80] Using s16p internally between filters
  
  [auto-inserted resampler 0 @ 0000000001ca4060] [SWR @ 0000000001ca4a80] Matrix coefficients:
  
  [auto-inserted resampler 0 @ 0000000001ca4060] [SWR @ 0000000001ca4a80] FC: FL:0.500000 FR:0.500000 
  
  [auto-inserted resampler 0 @ 0000000001ca4060] ch:2 chl:stereo fmt:s16 r:44100Hz -> ch:1 chl:mono fmt:s16 r:16000Hz
  
  Output #0, flv, to 'http://operator:operator@10.10.210.2/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi':
  
    Metadata:
  
      encoder         : Lavf57.57.100
  
      Stream #0:0, 0, 1/1000: Audio: pcm_mulaw ([8][0][0][0] / 0x0008), 16000 Hz, mono, s16, 128 kb/s
  
      Metadata:
  
        encoder         : Lavc57.66.101 pcm_mulaw
  
  Stream mapping:
  
    Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (pcm_s16le (native) -> pcm_mulaw (native))
  
  Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
  
  cur_dts is invalid (this is harmless if it occurs once at the start per stream)
  
  av_interleaved_write_frame(): Unknown error
  
  No more output streams to write to, finishing.
  
  Error writing trailer of http://operator:operator@10.10.210.2/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi: Error number -10053 occurredsize=       8kB time=00:00:00.49 bitrate= 131.2kbits/s speed=79.6x    
  
  video:0kB audio:8kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global headers:0kB muxing overhead: 2.492485%
  
  Input file #0 (audio=Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device)):
  
    Input stream #0:0 (audio): 1 packets read (88200 bytes); 1 frames decoded (22050 samples); 
  
    Total: 1 packets (88200 bytes) demuxed
  
  Output file #0 (http://operator:operator@10.10.210.2/axis-cgi/audio/transmit.cgi):
  
    Output stream #0:0 (audio): 1 frames encoded (7984 samples); 1 packets muxed (7984 bytes); 
  
    Total: 1 packets (7984 bytes) muxed
  
  1 frames successfully decoded, 0 decoding errors
  
  [AVIOContext @ 0000000001c9e4c0] Statistics: 0 seeks, 2 writeouts
  
  dshow passing through packet of type audio size    12152 timestamp 310226130000 orig timestamp 310226130000 graph timestamp 310226820000 diff 690000 Microphone (2- High Definition Audio Device)
  
  Conversion failed!

  For some reason, despite setting multiple_requests, reconnect_eof, reconnect_streamed all to true, connection becomes closed.

  Could you please tell me what I’m doing wrong ?

• Vedanti and Max Sound vs. Google

  14 août 2014, par Multimedia Mike — Legal/Ethical

  Vedanti Systems Limited (VSL) and Max Sound Coporation filed a lawsuit against Google recently. Ordinarily, I wouldn’t care about corporate legal battles. However, this one interests me because it’s multimedia-related. I’m curious to know how coding technology patents might hold up in a real court case.

  Here’s the most entertaining complaint in the lawsuit :

  Despite Google’s well-publicized Code of Conduct — “Don’t be Evil” — which it explains is “about doing the right thing,” “following the law,” and “acting honorably,” Google, in fact, has an established pattern of conduct which is the exact opposite of its claimed piety.

  I wonder if this is the first known case in which Google has been sued over its long-obsoleted “Don’t be evil” mantra ?

  Researching The Plaintiffs
  
  I think I made a mistake by assuming this lawsuit might have merit. My first order of business was to see what the plaintiff organizations have produced. I have a strong feeling that these might be run of the mill patent trolls.

  VSL currently has a blank web page. Further, the Wayback Machine only has pages reaching back to 2011. The earliest page lists these claims against a plain black background (I’ve highlighted some of the more boisterous claims and the passages that make it appear that Vedanti doesn’t actually produce anything but is strictly an IP organization) :

  The inventions key :
  The patent and software reduced any data content, without compressing, up to a 97% total reduction of the data which also produces a lossless result. This physics based invention is often called the Holy Grail.

  Vedanti Systems Intellectual Property
  Our strategic IP portfolio is granted in all of the world’s largest technology development and use countries. A major value indemnification of our licensee products is the early date of invention filing and subsequent Issue. Vedanti IP has an intrinsic 20 year patent protection and valuation in royalties and licensing. The original data transmission art has no prior art against it.

  Vedanti Systems invented among other firsts, The Slice and Partitioning of Macroblocks within a RGB Tri level region in a frame to select or not, the pixel.

  Vedanti Systems invention is used in nearly every wireless chipset and handset in the world

  Our original pixel selection system revolutionized wireless handset communications. An example of this system “Slice” and “Macroblock Partitioning” is used throughout Satellite channel expansion, Wireless partitioning, Telecom – Video Conferencing, Surveillance Cameras, and 2010 developing Media applications.

  Vedanti Systems is a Semiconductor based software, applications, and IP Continuations Intellectual Property company.

  Let’s move onto the other plaintiff, Max Sound. They have a significantly more substantive website. They also have an Android app named Spins HD Audio, which appears to be little more than a music player based on the screenshots.

  Max Sound also has a stock ticker symbol : MAXD. Something clicked into place when I looked up their ticker symbol : While worth only a few pennies, it was worth a few more pennies after this lawsuit was announced, which might be one of the motivations behind the lawsuit.

  Here’s a trick I learned when I was looking for a new tech job last year : When I first look at a company’s website and am trying to figure out what they really do, I head straight to their jobs/careers page. A lot of corporate websites have way too much blathering corporatese that can be tough to cut through. But when I see what mix of talent and specific skills they are hoping to hire, that gives me a much better portrait of what the company does.

  The reason I bring this up is because this tech company doesn’t seem to have jobs/careers page.

  The Lawsuit
  The core complaint centers around Patent 7974339 : Optimized data transmission system and method. It was filed in July 2004 (or possibly as early as January 2002), issued in July 2011, and assigned (purchased ?) by Vedanti in May 2012. The lawsuit alleges that nearly everything Google has ever produced (or, more accurately, purchased) leverages the patented technology.

  The patent itself has 5 drawings. If you’ve ever seen a multimedia codec patent, or any whitepaper on a multimedia codec, you’ve seen these graphs before. E.g., “Raw pixels come in here -> some analysis happens here -> more analysis happens over here -> entropy coding -> final bitstream”. The text of a patent document isn’t meant to be particularly useful. I’ve tried to understand this stuff before and it never goes well. Skimming the text, I just see a blur of the words data, transmission, pixel, and matrix.

  So I read the complaint to try to figure out what this is all about. To summarize the storyline as narrated by the lawsuit, some inventors were unhappy with the state of video compression in 2001 and endeavored to create something better. So they did, and called it the VSL codec. This codec is so far undocumented on the MultimediaWiki, so it probably has yet to be seen “in the wild”. Good luck finding hard technical data on it now since searches for “VSL codec” are overwhelmed by articles about this lawsuit. Also, the original codec probably wasn’t called VSL because VSL is apparently an IP organization formed much later.

  Then, the protagonists of the lawsuit patented the codec. Then, years later, Google wanted to purchase a video codec that they could open source and use to supplant H.264.

  The complaint goes on to allege that in 2010, Google specifically contacted VSL to possibly license or acquire this mysterious VSL technology. Google was allegedly allowed to study the technology, eventually decided not to continue discussions, and shipped back the proprietary materials.

  Here’s where things get weird. When Google shipped back the materials, they allegedly shipped back a bunch of Post-It notes. The notes are alleged to contain a ton of incriminating evidence. The lawsuit claims that the notes contained such tidbits as :

  • Google was concerned that its infringement could be considered “recklessness” (the standard applicable to willful infringement) ;
  • Google personnel should “try” to destroy incriminating emails ;
  • Google should consider a “design around” because it was facing a “risk of litigation.”

  Actually, given Google’s acquisition of On2, I can totally believe that last one (On2’s codecs have famously contained a lot of weirdness which is commonly suspected to be attributable to designing around known patents).

  Anyway, a lot of this case seems to hinge on the authenticity of these Post-It notes :

  “65. The Post-It notes are unequivocal evidence of Google’s knowledge of the ’339 Patent and infringement by Defendants”

  I wish I could find a stock photo of a stack of Post-It notes in an evidence bag.

  I’ve worked at big technology companies. Big tech companies these days are very diligent about indoctrinating employees about IP liability issues. The reason this Post-It situation strikes me as odd is because the alleged contents of the notes basically outline everything the corporate lawyers tell you NOT to do.

  Analysis
  I’m trying to determine what specific algorithms and coding techniques. I guess I was expecting to see a specific claim that, “Our patent outlines this specific coding technique and here is unequivocal proof that Google A) uses the same technique, and B) specifically did so after looking at our patent.” I didn’t find that (well, a bit of part B, c.f., the Post-It note debacle), but maybe that’s not how these patent lawsuits operate. I’ve never kept up before.

  Maybe it’s just a patent troll. Maybe it’s for the stock bump. I’m expecting to see pump-n-dump stock spam featuring the stock symbol MAXD anytime now.

  I’ve never been interested in following a lawsuit case carefully before. I suddenly find myself wondering if I can subscribe to the RSS feed for this case ? Too much to hope for. But I found this item through Pando and maybe they’ll stay on top of it.

• Saying Goodbye To Old Machines

  1er décembre 2014, par Multimedia Mike — General, powerpc, via

  I recently sent a few old machines off for recycling. Both had relevance to the early days of the FATE testing effort. As is my custom, I photographed them (poorly, of course).

  First, there’s the PowerPC-based Mac Mini I procured thanks to a Craigslist ad in late 2006. I had plans to develop automated FFmpeg building and testing and was already looking ahead toward testing multiple CPU architectures. Again, this was 2006 and PowerPC wasn’t completely on the outs yet– although Apple’s MacTel transition was in full swing, the entire new generation of video game consoles was based on PowerPC.

  
  

  

  Click for larger image

  
  

  I remember trying to find a Mac Mini PPC on Craigslist. Many were to be found, but all asked more than the price of even a new Mac Mini Intel, always because the seller was leaving all of last year’s applications and perhaps including a monitor, neither of which I needed. Fortunately, I found this bare Mac Mini. Also fortunate was the fact that it was far easier to install Linux on it than the first PowerPC machine I owned.

  After FATE operation transitioned away from me, I still kept the machine in service as an edge server and automated backup machine. That is, until the hard drive failed on reboot one day. Thus, when it was finally time to recycle the computer, I felt it necessary to disassemble the machine and remove the hard drive for possible salvage and then for destruction.
  

  If you’ve ever attempted to upgrade or otherwise service this style of Mac Mini, you will no doubt recognize the pictured paint scraper tool as standard kit. I have had that tool since I first endeavored to upgrade the RAM to 1 GB from the standard 1/2 GB. Performing such activities on a Mac Mini is tedious, but only if you care about putting it back together afterwards.

  The next machine is a bit older. I put it together nearly a decade ago, early in 2005. This machine’s original duty was “download agent”– this would be more specifically called a BitTorrent machine in modern tech parlance. Back then, I placed it on someone else’s woefully underutilized home broadband connection (with their permission, of course) when I was too cheap to upgrade from dialup.

  
  

  

  Click for larger image

  
  

  This is a small form factor system from VIA that was clearly designed with home theater PC (HTPC) use cases in mind. It has a VIA C3 x86-compatible CPU (according to my notes, Centaur VIA Samuel 2 stepping 03, flags : fpu de tsc msr cx8 mtrr pge mmx 3dnow) and 128 MB of RAM (initially ; I upgraded it to 512 MB some years later, just for the sake of doing it). And then there was the 120 GB PATA HD for all that downloaded goodness.

  
  

  

  Click for larger image

  
  

  I have specific memories of a time when my main computer at home wasn’t working correctly for one reason or another. Instead, I logged into this machine remotely via SSH to make several optimizations and fixes on FFmpeg’s VP3/Theora video decoder, all from the terminal, without being able to see the decoded images with my own eyes (which is why I insist that even blind people could work on video codecs).

  By the time I got my own broadband, I had become inspired to attempt the automated build and test system for FFmpeg. This was the machine I used for prototyping early brainstorms of FATE. By the time I put a basic build/test system into place in early 2008, I had much faster computers that could build and test the project– obvious limitation of this machine is that it could take at least 1/2 hour to build the entire codebase, and that was the project from 8 years ago.

  So the machine got stuffed in a closet somewhere along the line. The next time I pulled it out was in 2010 when I wanted to toy with Dreamcast programming once more (the machine appears in one of the photos in this post). This was the only machine I still owned which still had an RS-232 serial port (I didn’t know much about USB serial converters yet), plus it still had a bunch of pre-compiled DC homebrew binaries (I was having trouble getting the toolchain to work right).

  The next time I dusted off this machine was late last year when I was trying some experiments with the Microsoft Xbox’s IDE drive (a photo in that post also shows the machine ; this thing shows up a lot on this blog). The VIA machine was the only machine I still owned which had 40-pin IDE connectors which was crucial to my experiment.

  At this point, I was trying to make the machine more useful which meant replacing the ancient Gentoo Linux distribution as well as simply interacting with it via a keyboard and mouse. I have a long Evernote entry documenting a comedy of errors revolving around this little box. The interaction troubles were due to the fact that I didn’t have any PS/2 keyboards left and I couldn’t make a USB keyboard work with it. Diego was able to explain that I needed to flip a bit in the BIOS to address this which worked. As for upgrading the OS, I tried numerous Linux distributions large and small, mostly focusing on the small. None worked. I eventually learned that, while I was trying to use i686 distributions, this machine did not actually qualify as an i686 CPU ; installations usually booted but failed because the default kernel required the cmov instruction. I was advised to try i386 distros instead. My notes don’t indicate whether I had any luck on this front before I gave up and moved on.

  I just made the connection that this VIA machine has two 40-pin IDE connectors which means that the thing was technically capable of supporting up to 4 IDE devices. Obviously, the computer couldn’t really accommodate that in terms of space or power. When I wanted to try installing a new OS, I needed take off the top and connect a rather bulky IDE CD-ROM drive. This computer’s casing was supposed to be able to support a slimline optical drive (perhaps like the type found in laptops), but I could never quite visualize how that was supposed to work, space-wise. When I disassembled the PowerPC Mac Mini, I realized I might be able to repurpose that machines optical drive for this computer. Obviously, I thought better of trying since both machines are off to the recycle pile.

  I would still like to work on the Xbox project a bit more, but I procured a different, unused, much more powerful yet still old computer that has a motherboard with 1 PATA connector in addition to 6 SATA connectors. If I ever get around to toying with Linux kernel development, this should be a much more appropriate platform to use.

  I thought about turning this machine into an old Windows XP (and lower, down to Windows 3.1) gaming platform ; the capabilities of the machine would probably be perfect for a huge portion of my Windows game collection. But I think the lack of an optical drive renders this idea intractable. External USB drives are likely out of the question since there is very little chance that this motherboard featured USB 2.0 (the specs don’t mention 2.0, so the USB ports are probably 1.1).

  So it is with fond memories that I send off both machines, sans hard drives, to the recycle pile. I’m still deciding on an appropriate course of action for failed hard drives, though.